Ed Gebhart & Jim Hawkins 29 min

Fishers Police Department Rapid DNA Investigative Leads Program


Fishers Police Department Forensic Services Unit, in partnership with Indiana State Police Crime Laboratory and the Human Identification Center at the University of Indianapolis, is utilizing rapid DNA technology to quickly inform investigations and identify human remains. Learn about this collaborative program and key investigations impacted by this technology.



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[MUSIC PLAYING]

0:05

Hello, and welcome to HIDS 2023.

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I'm Megan Insling, technical project manager

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on the Rapid Enablement team here at Thermo Fisher

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Scientific.

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I'm excited to introduce our next presentation.

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Fisher's Police Department Rapid DNA Program

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Investigative leads.

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You'll hear how a single police department in Fisher's

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Indiana implemented a rapid DNA program

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and some of the successes they've already had with it.

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Joining me here today is Detective Sergeant Jim Hawkins,

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who is instrumental in spearheading this program

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and forging the partnerships that have made it successful.

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After the presentation, we'll be here to answer your questions.

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Be sure to enter your questions in the chat

0:52

and enjoy the presentation.

0:54

We'll talk with you again shortly.

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[MUSIC PLAYING]

1:00

Hello, everybody.

1:11

Welcome to the HIDS conference.

1:13

It's a pleasure to be here.

1:14

My name is Detective Sergeant Jim Hawkins.

1:16

I'm with the Fisher's Police Department.

1:17

Fisher's is located on the northeast side of Indianapolis,

1:20

Indiana.

1:21

We're a suburb of Indianapolis.

1:23

So we work extensively with the Indianapolis Metropolitan

1:27

Police Department through task force agents and officers

1:31

and other investigators.

1:32

As the supervisor of the Forensic Services Unit,

1:34

a few years ago, I was tasked with an objective

1:38

to explore the potential for rapid DNA processing,

1:42

not only through the Fisher's Police Department,

1:45

but how we could explore expanding that out

1:47

through Central Indiana.

1:49

The Fisher's Police Department can now

1:50

test for DNA in just 90 minutes.

1:53

Tucked away in the corner of the Fisher's Police Department's

1:56

Forensic Lab is new technology called RapidHit DNA.

2:01

Fisher's PD is the first department in the state

2:04

to invest in it.

2:05

We started with, hey, what's RapidDNA?

2:08

To, hey, we've got one in-house.

2:11

Our big vision is to not only quickly identify a suspect

2:15

while we still have the person in custody,

2:18

but we also tried to look at the totality of what

2:22

this technology could do with some outside the box thinking

2:24

and looking at partnerships with local law enforcement,

2:27

our state agencies.

2:29

We are trying to enhance the capabilities

2:31

for law enforcement in areas that aren't currently

2:34

being pursued in conjunction with your conventional DNA

2:38

testing.

2:39

I partnered with Thermal Fisher.

2:41

They had some really, really good representatives that came out,

2:44

helped educate me.

2:45

And then my team came up with some pretty innovative ideas

2:48

and we were able to move forward from there.

2:49

The fact of the matter is bad guys

2:51

don't care about a line on a map.

2:52

We have to start thinking of this as a regional problem.

2:56

We have to start looking at what we can do to help each other.

2:59

The guy that is breaking the law in Indianapolis

3:02

is coming up and breaking the law in Fisher.

3:05

So we have to transcend that old way of thinking

3:08

and look to the future.

3:10

One of the biggest challenges early on,

3:12

you just get bombarded.

3:13

It's single source DNA.

3:14

This is what your focus is, your blood, your crime scenes.

3:17

We examined what is one of the major problems

3:20

in a community art size.

3:21

A little over 100,000 were a suburb of a major city.

3:24

Property crime was a major problem for us.

3:27

You got a car that's been broken into

3:28

and it's rapid DNA is not going to be your first choice.

3:31

It's going to be conventional DNA.

3:32

We looked at that and said, where can we use this

3:35

as an opportunity to grow our rapid DNA?

3:37

We have a great partnership with the India State Police

3:39

Lab, fantastic partners.

3:41

We continue to approach those scenes in that evidence

3:43

in that way.

3:44

But then we looked at elements such as a consent program.

3:48

What are we doing with our DNA

3:51

when we get DNA for a search warrant for anything?

3:54

And we realized that if we started to approach it

3:57

a little bit differently, not only do we increase

3:59

our sample size that we have as a local database,

4:03

but through a partnership with the India State Police Lab,

4:05

they have opened up their unknown DNA database to us.

4:09

So when we are taking those unknown swabs

4:12

from vehicle break-ins, from burglaries,

4:15

we're getting access to those profiles.

4:17

So when they do develop a profile through those

4:20

mixture DNA is using the conventional methodology.

4:24

We're sending our guys out to target the known criminals

4:27

to get those standards and we're getting those samples

4:29

entered into our database and through the software,

4:32

we're able to get hits back and start to address

4:35

and attack these property crimes by utilizing rapid DNA.

4:40

My first step was to reach out to the Indian State Police Lab.

4:43

They were our primary partner for DNA evidence.

4:48

I sat down with their codis coordinator.

4:51

We kind of went through what some of our hopes and dreams

4:54

basically were and as the partnership developed,

4:57

we kind of looked at how do you want to manage the software?

5:01

'Cause one of the ways we dealt with that was

5:03

to address some of the needs of the Indian State Police Lab.

5:06

And they were interested in getting started

5:08

with their unknown DNA samples.

5:11

They agreed as part of the partnership

5:13

to manage the small pond software system

5:17

that we utilize as part of this program.

5:19

When they agreed to do that, that was a big help to us.

5:22

It helped to standardize the way we do things.

5:25

So the next thing we looked at was reach back.

5:28

With rapid DNA that we have through thermofisher,

5:30

you're gonna get a red, green or yellow.

5:32

We all want the greens as the greatest.

5:34

If you've got people in house who are trained on DNA evidence,

5:37

specifically to read those DNA sample reports,

5:41

that's fantastic, but we didn't have that.

5:43

We were fortunate enough to have a local university,

5:46

the University of Indianapolis reached out

5:48

to Dr. Krista Latham there.

5:50

She is a board certified anthropologist.

5:53

We sat down and looked at what the Fishers

5:57

Police Department needs, but also what we can do

6:00

to aid the university.

6:03

Just like we are the only ones in the state of Indiana

6:06

who have a rapid DNA program,

6:08

there was nobody out there in this scholastic field

6:11

that was teaching their students

6:13

anything about rapid DNA.

6:15

And let's face it, this is definitely the way

6:17

of the future.

6:18

This is something that if you're a young person

6:19

in college right now, you're gonna benefit

6:21

from learning about.

6:22

So we developed a partnership where she would review

6:26

our DNA profiles that we had to have reached back done on.

6:29

And then in exchange, we would open our lab up

6:33

to her graduate students.

6:34

They were able to come in, do some DNA work,

6:36

and they were able to work on actual criminal cases.

6:39

Ultimately, it gives the students a chance

6:42

to get hands on experience with real life case work.

6:46

And it saves us a lot of money on the back end

6:48

because we're not paying for reach back.

6:50

Law enforcement has to evolve.

6:51

You have to move forward.

6:52

You have to try new things.

6:53

We used to look at it well.

6:54

You go there, you pack as you collect,

6:56

you move on, it goes off for conventional DNA.

6:59

What can we do in the immediate?

7:00

So if I've got a guy who is in an interview room

7:04

for a burglary, we get a search warrant for his DNA.

7:06

While he's being interviewed,

7:08

a criminal forensic investigator from my unit

7:11

will go into the interview room, serve that warrant,

7:13

get a buckle swab from this suspect,

7:17

throw it into the rapid instrument, and get a hit back.

7:20

But that person comes back with a open,

7:23

who-done-it sexual assault kit out of Fort Wayne, Indiana.

7:26

We're going to be able to contact the Fort Wayne PD

7:28

and let them know we have that suspect

7:30

and he's in our interview room.

7:32

We're going to be able to start working that case

7:35

not four months later when conventional DNA comes back,

7:40

but we're going to be able to start working that case

7:42

while this guy is still in our interview room.

7:44

We don't have to go track him down months later.

7:46

We can move forward with that.

7:47

And we have probable cause to put those charges on him as well.

7:50

So this guy doesn't get a lower bond.

7:52

And we can make sure we keep him behind bars

7:55

where he can't hurt anybody else

7:57

and not only get closure for our burglary victim,

7:59

but we might potentially be able to get closure

8:00

for other victims out there that we don't even know about.

8:03

Once I really learned about it

8:04

and once I understood what the capabilities are,

8:07

I was kind of surprised we were the only ones

8:09

in the state of Indiana doing it.

8:10

And there's a lot of potential to get a lot of bad guys

8:14

put away before they could hurt other people.

8:16

I was really lucky in that my chief, my command staff,

8:21

my mayor are very proactive when it comes to

8:25

not only technological advances within the police department,

8:29

but in embracing new ideologies and tactics

8:33

in law enforcement.

8:34

For DNA collection of any kind,

8:36

whether it's a crime scene or from a suspect or victim

8:40

or elimination standards,

8:42

all that is set forth in the state of Indiana

8:44

by the Indiana State Police Lab.

8:45

So when we take those samples,

8:47

it's based off of their expectation, their standard

8:51

for not only collection, but packaging and submission.

8:55

The agency lab that they submit to

8:58

will set forth the guidelines and the standards

9:00

and the accepted practices.

9:01

So we trained our people to look and analyze the sample size.

9:05

If I've got a large pool of blood

9:08

that I can get plenty of single source DNA from,

9:11

I'm going to take two samples at a minimum,

9:14

one for conventional DNA, one for rapid.

9:18

If I'm not 100% sure if there's enough sample there

9:21

to get a rapid DNA test done as well as a conventional test done,

9:26

they agreed upon method with what the Indiana State Police Lab

9:29

is conventional DNA.

9:30

If I've got a single source DNA and I've got plenty of it,

9:34

we go rapid and conventional every single time.

9:37

But if we're not sure or we're fairly certain

9:40

we don't have enough,

9:41

we are going to err on the side of caution.

9:43

And that was just the protocol set forth

9:45

with the Indiana State Police Lab.

9:46

There's not an issue with the retesting.

9:49

Retesting should not be a problem.

9:50

As we were putting together this process,

9:52

part of partnering up with other agencies

9:55

and bringing in other stakeholders in a project like this

9:58

is I have to look at it not only from my point of view,

10:01

but I have to look at it from their point of view.

10:03

And I have to address concerns and make sure

10:05

that I'm working within the comfort level

10:07

of all the other stakeholders.

10:10

So if I'm the chief, putting bad guys away

10:12

is a win for everybody,

10:13

but specifically being able to quantify the successes.

10:17

If you're a victim, it might just be closure.

10:20

The concerning thing for me would just be a missed opportunity.

10:22

We've had an evidence technician program

10:24

in place here at the Fishers Police Department

10:26

for decades now.

10:28

So we have officers who have been cross-trained

10:30

in processing smaller scenes

10:32

and they know how to go to a burglary scene.

10:34

They know how to collect DNA.

10:35

They've been trained to the standards

10:36

of the Indiana State Police Lab.

10:38

If it's a major case, a homicide,

10:40

an officer-involved shooting rape or something like that,

10:43

one of the criminal forensic investigators

10:45

will go out and handle that scene.

10:47

If you're going out and properly collecting DNA today

10:51

and you get a rapid DNA machine tomorrow,

10:53

you're not changing the way you're doing business.

10:55

You're changing the way you look at the evidence sometimes,

10:58

but you're not really changing the way

10:59

that you're collecting it.

11:00

Well, there's not a whole lot of training there.

11:02

I just have to train them to think about the case differently.

11:06

What do I have?

11:07

What could I potentially get?

11:08

We sat down with the University of Indianapolis,

11:11

the Indiana State Police Lab and ourselves

11:13

and went through the entire procedure.

11:16

We made sure that we were all on the same page.

11:19

In our short time, we have had some pretty cool wins.

11:21

Last year in 2022, we had 12 cases

11:25

of unidentified human remains for local agencies

11:29

and agencies who had heard we had that capability.

11:32

And we had a case where we had a allegedly intoxicated driver

11:37

that had crashed into an Uber

11:42

that was filled full of teenagers.

11:44

At some point before the first responders got there,

11:47

the driver that crawled into the passenger seat,

11:51

somebody else was driving and he ran off.

11:53

One of my criminal forensic investigators went out

11:54

and she processed the scene, located blood

11:59

on the airbag of the suspect's vehicle.

12:04

And we got a search warrant for his DNA standard.

12:07

We were able to match that up.

12:08

We were able to put him in the seat of that car.

12:11

At the time, the airbag went off.

12:13

We had a murder suicide last year.

12:16

I was an unpleasant murder suicide.

12:18

We needed to be able to identify the man and woman.

12:21

It was a married couple and we were able to get consent

12:26

from the next of kin to get a buckle swab

12:31

from their infant child that they had together.

12:35

We were able to use that to get a rapid DNA matches back

12:40

to both of the parents of the murder suicides.

12:44

So we were able to kind of go backwards

12:45

using the child's DNA in order to make those

12:49

positive identifications, which obviously

12:51

when you're dealing with a murder case is instrumental.

12:54

And you're going to need the support of the people

12:57

who can financially back you to make this a success.

13:02

Chief Ed Gebhardt was very instrumental

13:05

in getting this program very supportive.

13:07

Mayor Scott Fadness said, "This is a great idea.

13:10

"This is something that is a game changer.

13:12

"This is something where we can lead a modern charge

13:15

"in law enforcement."

13:16

We're happy to help answer any questions you have.

13:19

But at this time I'd like to introduce Chief Ed Gebhardt,

13:22

Chief of the Fishers Police Department.

13:24

Thank you very much for your time.

13:25

- It's Chief Ed Gebhardt.

13:28

I'm the Chief of Police for the City of Fishers,

13:31

roughly 140 total employees report to me on a day-to-day basis.

13:36

In my role as the Chief of Police is to be out

13:40

within the community, hear the community

13:42

and try to get to understanding a pulse

13:43

for what our city and our community would want

13:46

out of their police department

13:47

and then to translate it back into the police department.

13:50

It's my job to allow our agency to innovate,

13:54

create and move in a direction

13:57

that can best represent what it's going to take to fight crime.

14:00

If we can implement things that keep us ahead of crime

14:05

and keep us ahead of trends that may be coming our way,

14:09

then I think that's the sweet spot for law enforcement.

14:12

That's right where I want to be is not reactive,

14:15

but proactive in this fight against criminals.

14:18

The one fact that drew my attention quickly

14:22

to the rapid DNA program is the fact

14:27

that we could potentially identify a suspect,

14:31

a family member in a crisis within 90 minutes

14:35

through our own lab here at our own police department.

14:38

And it's important for me as Chief

14:41

to have a ability and a feeling that we can self-sustain

14:45

and handle things that come our way.

14:47

And I think DNA puts us in a unique situation

14:50

to not only handle those events within Fishers,

14:53

and I'm talking like mass casualty active shooter.

14:56

It could be weather related.

14:58

It doesn't matter.

14:59

Even down to evidence pulled from a crime scene

15:02

where we can match a suspect within 90 minutes,

15:05

I think the impact on the community generally,

15:07

their expectation is of us, is that we bring resolve fast

15:11

and we can bring it in such a way

15:14

that we're confident in our technology.

15:16

And in this program, we are.

15:17

And I think that builds confidence in our department,

15:20

but it also builds confidence within our department.

15:23

This is cutting edge technology

15:25

that I think everybody's going to have to have

15:28

and want to have.

15:29

What excites me is that our team,

15:33

they're gonna be on the leadership side

15:35

of helping other agencies.

15:37

And I think it's gonna change the way we fight crime.

15:40

DNA was not my idea.

15:42

I mean, it's a lot to sit down and understand

15:45

and work through.

15:46

If you're a chief out there,

15:47

you have to really peel the onion back

15:50

and look at the layers of this thing.

15:52

And then when you can kind of start to understand

15:55

what it is, how it functions and how it can help,

15:57

you begin to get really involved and on board

16:00

with the overall mission,

16:01

'cause you can see that its scope is so broad

16:04

and able to help the community

16:06

in so many different fashions.

16:07

So why weren't we doing this five or six years ago?

16:10

I mean, think how far ahead we could be now.

16:12

If we did that, our database and our pool

16:15

would be so much better.

16:16

If you're doing niven or you're doing your gun program

16:19

and you're doing it right and you're printing your guns

16:23

and you're getting fingerprints

16:24

and you're doing that system right in your agency,

16:26

then there's no reason why you shouldn't move into DNA

16:29

because you're already getting it.

16:30

You already have it.

16:31

It's in your house.

16:32

All you gotta do is upload it

16:33

and begin to get your pool going

16:35

so you can identify suspects when they're on their way up

16:37

to the homicide of the crimes.

16:39

I think in five years from now,

16:40

I think this entire state is gonna have DNA

16:44

in their police agency.

16:46

And I think you're gonna see it all over the place

16:48

and it's gonna be a normal thing if you follow the steps

16:51

and you build partnerships outside your agency,

16:53

us with state police and you of Indy

16:55

and all the different things that we've done

16:57

to make sure we professionalize our process.

16:59

You save your department a lot of time

17:03

and traditional law enforcement work

17:04

when you can get that match and it's an accurate match

17:08

and you're able to bring closure to families a lot quicker

17:11

because you have this technology in house

17:13

where families are out there for months waiting sometimes

17:16

on a match or I think the same side goes

17:18

for a criminal apprehension.

17:19

Those resources can be onto the next crime

17:22

and we're a smaller agency.

17:23

We're doing really big things

17:25

because we have people in locations

17:27

that can really dive into this

17:28

to bring the state police in and make them partners means a lot.

17:33

And then when you bring, you know, you of Indy

17:35

and their specialists in DNA and they're in your lab

17:39

and they're communicating with your forensic team

17:42

and working with thermal fishers is huge as well

17:46

because they're right there step in step with us,

17:49

walking along and introducing us to other agencies

17:52

that have done this.

17:53

It's a very surreal situation

17:55

'cause I never saw my time in law enforcement

17:58

evolve to such a level with so many different professionals

18:01

and it makes me proud to be a part of it

18:03

because these are otherwise professions

18:06

that wouldn't be talking, right?

18:07

And this kind of brings us together

18:09

for the overall mission of crime apprehension

18:12

and everybody that we seem to run into is open arms.

18:15

Come see it, come test it, come taste it.

18:17

What do you need?

18:18

What can we send you?

18:19

So if you're an agency that's in position to be a leader

18:22

by all means, go do it

18:23

because you know, we're gonna service this whole county

18:25

as far as we're concerned and we want that

18:27

because if we make the county safe, then our city's safe.

18:31

And if we can get the metro area around us safe

18:33

then we're safe and if we can attack the state,

18:36

then we're even that much safer.

18:37

And I think that that's where this is headed.

18:39

(upbeat music)

18:42

- Hello, Sergeant Hawkins, thank you so much for joining us.

18:55

- Hi, thank you for having me.

18:57

- Absolutely.

18:59

- We have a few questions coming up from the chat

19:01

and so I'll just go ahead and get started.

19:04

- Sounds great.

19:05

- Can you share the motivation that your agency had

19:08

when you originally started your rapid DNA program?

19:11

- So as an agency, we try and look at things

19:17

a little bit different.

19:18

We try and look at things that aren't the traditional mold

19:21

of what you think of with modern law enforcement

19:25

as a suburb of a major metropolitan area, Indianapolis,

19:29

and we're surrounded by other suburbs.

19:31

You don't have to go very far to find a jurisdictional line.

19:35

And traditionally, when a crime happens

19:38

within one jurisdictional line,

19:39

that agency will do their best to investigate it

19:42

and then move on to the next case.

19:44

But more and more we're finding that the criminal element,

19:49

the bad guys are not exactly reading maps.

19:52

So they are in one jurisdiction today

19:56

in another jurisdiction tomorrow.

19:58

It's constantly changing, it's constantly evolving.

20:00

And we have to, as an agency, look at what do we consider

20:05

a success?

20:07

What do we consider a win?

20:08

And it's not just traditionally it would be just,

20:12

hey, we got a crime stat.

20:14

I got an arrest stat, so that's a win for my agency.

20:18

Well, when you have the criminals moving around

20:20

as much as they are these days,

20:22

a win may not just be an arrest stat in Fishers.

20:25

It may be an arrest stat in Carmel or Indiana

20:28

or the north side of the state.

20:30

Working together in nontraditional ways,

20:33

in an effort to expand law enforcement capabilities

20:39

with modern technology was really a major motivation

20:44

for this agency.

20:46

They wanted to take that idea and expand it

20:49

and roll with it.

20:51

And somebody, I guess somebody's gotta be first

20:53

and it just happened to be us.

20:56

- That's fantastic.

20:57

We're grateful for it.

20:58

That's fantastic.

21:01

Another question that's come in is,

21:04

what kind of samples make up the bulk

21:06

of the rapid DNA profiles that you generated

21:08

your agency currently?

21:10

- So from an agency standpoint,

21:13

the bulk of ours are known samples.

21:16

We, with our partnership with ISP, the NSD Police Lab,

21:20

which is a fantastic partnership,

21:22

great shout out to that agency

21:25

and Superintendent Carter for making that happen.

21:27

But for us, the vast majority is known samples

21:33

'cause realistically, the unknown crime scene samples,

21:37

yes, they do occur,

21:39

but finding single source DNA at every single crime scene

21:42

you go to, for at least for agency our size,

21:45

we don't see as much of that come in.

21:46

It does come in, but we don't see as much.

21:48

So we really focus on the known samples,

21:51

getting known samples into the database

21:55

so that we can start to bounce off of those unknowns.

21:57

Although the state police lab's unknown

21:59

does make up a larger quantity of samples

22:03

within our small pond,

22:04

our agency does significantly more knowns than unknown samples.

22:08

- Absolutely.

22:11

One of the questions that's come in

22:15

is how you deal with cases with no suspects,

22:18

since currently question profiles developed

22:20

through rapid or not codis eligible.

22:23

I think this speaks to the data basing

22:25

that you partnership that you've made with ISP.

22:28

- Sure.

22:29

So the way that we look at it is

22:32

if I've got say a string of residential burglaries

22:36

that I think are being,

22:37

that we think are being committed

22:38

by the same offender or group of offenders,

22:41

we're gonna go out and we're gonna process those crime scenes

22:45

just like we always would have.

22:46

We're gonna go out and we're gonna attempt to get DNA samples

22:49

from the scene itself.

22:51

Those samples are gonna be submitted for traditional DNA.

22:54

And if a profile is developed,

22:56

it'll go into the NESA police database's unknown profiles.

23:00

So it'll float around there.

23:01

And then if we develop a suspect,

23:05

obviously we're going to try and need to get a warrant

23:08

or a consent to get that suspect's DNA sample.

23:13

But it will allow us to,

23:17

I may not know this person is good for it,

23:19

but perhaps I can give a consent sample.

23:21

It's amazing what you can do with a good consent program.

23:24

We're we're we hover around 80% of offenders,

23:28

not offenders, but of people who are requested

23:30

will give us a consent standard.

23:34

And then just using that method to throw it into rapid,

23:37

develop the profile that way.

23:38

And then the small pond software will tell us in 15 minutes

23:41

if it's gonna bounce off of any of those unknown profiles.

23:44

- Right.

23:45

And that small pond software just for our viewers

23:47

is a decentralized database that's outside of CODIS

23:50

that allows ISP to enter profiles.

23:53

It allows your rapid profiles to flow in there.

23:55

And then they search in that decentralized database.

24:00

- Correct.

24:01

And it also allows us to set parameters.

24:03

So with the state police lab and their unknown samples,

24:05

they have a certain set of parameters.

24:07

But if another agency gets involved in this,

24:10

we can have our samples bounce off of each other.

24:14

It gives you options.

24:15

- Absolutely.

24:16

- Absolutely.

24:18

Fantastic.

24:18

Thank you.

24:19

This one's a little bit higher level.

24:22

How has the use of rapid technology impacted

24:25

your investigative approaches and partnerships?

24:28

- So we had to, especially, I mean, at a patrol level,

24:34

we had to redefine how we were looking at any investigation.

24:39

The message that I put out to our officers

24:46

is in a regular 12-hour shift.

24:50

How many cars do you stop?

24:51

Of those cars, how many do you ask for consent

24:54

to search the vehicle?

24:55

Because the spider senses tingling your cop sense,

24:57

whatever you want to call it.

24:58

And you're like, "Man, this stuff is not right here."

25:01

Ask for consent to search.

25:02

Maybe you get it, maybe you don't.

25:04

But if you do, you search.

25:05

And then you continue your investigation from there.

25:08

My message to officers is, "Hey, if your cop sense

25:13

"is telling you that you feel like you need to search

25:16

"this car, you should also be asking for consent

25:18

"for a DNA standard."

25:19

Because what else is, what's not in that car?

25:21

If something is making you feel as though something

25:24

is not quite right, trust your instincts,

25:27

but don't forget that you need to look past

25:29

just what's in this car.

25:31

What else is there available through unknown DNA standards?

25:35

So really making sure that we look at incorporating this

25:41

in the most basic of interactions with people.

25:46

- Absolutely.

25:48

I think you mentioned the presentation

25:49

to keeping the same investigative approach,

25:52

but evolving it to use these new tools,

25:55

this new technology.

25:57

- Absolutely.

25:58

- Great, great.

25:59

Thank you.

26:00

So for others who are looking to bring on this technology,

26:05

what tips would you suggest to ensure a smooth transition

26:09

to rapid technology?

26:11

- You know, it's, use your imagination.

26:14

It sounds silly, but you know,

26:18

they're like the partnership with the University of Indianapolis.

26:22

It worked out great, saved us a lot of money.

26:25

And it was just a matter of me cold calling them

26:27

and saying, "Hey, I got this idea.

26:29

"You know, can we make something work?"

26:32

Working with your partners at the state lab.

26:35

When we first got going, it was a lot of hoops to jump through

26:40

to make sure that their,

26:43

the integrity of their program was maintained.

26:46

You have to realize that you're dealing with other agencies

26:48

that have their own set of priorities

26:50

that may or may not be rapid,

26:52

but if they're willing to work with you,

26:54

just be patient and realize that this,

26:57

I mean, it took us a long time

27:00

to get this program up and running.

27:02

And we are already receiving, you know,

27:05

hits from across the state.

27:08

We were having matches that are working out

27:10

in criminal cases and through unidentified human remains

27:14

with a coroner's office.

27:15

So it's, it does work.

27:16

You just have to give it a little bit of time.

27:18

So a little bit of patience.

27:20

- Absolutely, absolutely.

27:21

That makes sense.

27:22

Let's see, we've got just a couple of minutes left.

27:27

When you were facing these challenges setting up,

27:29

what inspired you to keep going?

27:31

- I would say the potential,

27:34

the potential of what can we solve

27:37

that is not going to be solved otherwise.

27:39

I mean, if you've got your unknown standards out there,

27:42

great, but if they're not in CODIS,

27:44

it's not, you're not, you're not,

27:47

you're not going to get that match up here.

27:48

You're not going to get that link, that connection.

27:51

Being able to look at DNA processing DNA work

27:56

on casework differently and just the potential of,

28:00

hey, if we, if we can work together,

28:03

we can start closing cases

28:05

that would never have been closed otherwise.

28:08

And just that potential alone was very exciting.

28:12

- That's fantastic.

28:14

Well, listen, what's next for your rapid program?

28:16

- Well, now we want to take the model,

28:20

now that we've shown a proof of concept,

28:22

we've shown that, hey, we've got here,

28:24

we've got multiple criminal cases that this has been used on.

28:26

We've got, you know, different to unidentified human remains.

28:29

We've been able to help out with,

28:31

and we're getting hits from across the state.

28:34

Now that we've shown proof of concept,

28:36

I think that the next step will be getting other agencies

28:40

to jump in on this program,

28:42

whether it's through bringing samples to us,

28:44

whether it's through buying their own instrument

28:47

and then getting them on the software package

28:51

that links them with us and state

28:52

and gets us working together.

28:54

I think that's going to be the next logical step.

28:56

I think that after proof of concept,

28:59

we're going to have a lot more luck

29:01

convincing other agencies

29:03

that this is the new way of thinking about law enforcement.

29:07

- Absolutely.

29:09

Well, that's fantastic.

29:09

You've done amazing work, Sergeant Hawkins.

29:12

I'm so grateful that I got to work with you

29:14

and that you are available to share this with us today.

29:17

To all our viewers, enjoy the rest of hits

29:20

and thanks so much for tuning in.

29:22

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29:24

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